{
  "id": 1306,
  "title": "Supplying Code",
  "url": "/competitions/benchmark-bond-trade-price-challenge/discussion/1306",
  "author_name": "",
  "post_date": "2012-01-27T20:26:08.330Z",
  "votes": null,
  "comment_count": 11,
  "views": 4383,
  "content": "<p><strong>1. Winning participants are required to provide code</strong></p>\r\n<p>Can you elaborate on this please.</p>\r\n<p>Is this just to confirm the winning solution works and then erased, or is our code being 'bought' in return for the prize money.</p>\r\n<p>Does this mean all submission have to be hand coded from the ground up?</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;Cheers</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>\r\n<p><span><br>\r\n</span></p>",
  "messages": [
    {
      "id": "8289",
      "postDate": "01/27/2012 20:26:08",
      "content": "<p><strong>1. Winning participants are required to provide code</strong></p>\r\n<p>Can you elaborate on this please.</p>\r\n<p>Is this just to confirm the winning solution works and then erased, or is our code being 'bought' in return for the prize money.</p>\r\n<p>Does this mean all submission have to be hand coded from the ground up?</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;Cheers</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>\r\n<p><span><br>\r\n</span></p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8298",
      "postDate": "01/27/2012 23:13:21",
      "content": "<p>Hi Sali Mali,</p>\r\n<p>Yes, I guess we are &quot;buying&quot; your code, although the concept of running the competition is to acquire new ideas that we may not have had or have time to work on ourselves rather than the actual&nbsp;code itself (which we are very unlikely to use).&nbsp; This is kind\r\n of the point of Kaggle.&nbsp; I asked the team there and they told me that their T&amp;Cs state the following:</p>\r\n<p>&quot;By accepting an Award, the Winner agrees to grant a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty free license to the Competition Host to use the winning Entry and any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry in any way the\r\n Competition Host thinks fit. This license will be non-exclusive unless otherwise specified.&quot;</p>\r\n<p>Hope you're still keen to&nbsp;enter!</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8299",
      "postDate": "01/27/2012 23:13:49",
      "content": "<p>This competition is in accordance with the standard terms and conditions. Specifically, in section 9.3,</p>\r\n<p>[quote] By accepting an Award, the Winner agrees to grant a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty free license to the Competition Host to use the winning Entry and any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry in any way\r\n the Competition Host thinks fit. This license will be non-exclusive unless otherwise specified.<br>\r\n[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>If you are one of the winners, you need to provide the source code as well as a non-exclusive license to use it in order to receive prize money.</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8304",
      "postDate": "01/28/2012 05:56:06",
      "content": "<p>[quote=Ben Hamner;8299]</p>\r\n<p>This competition is in accordance with the standard terms and conditions. Specifically, in section 9.3,</p>\r\n<p>[quote] By accepting an Award, the Winner agrees to grant a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty free license to the Competition Host to use the winning Entry and any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry in any way\r\n the Competition Host thinks fit. This license will be non-exclusive unless otherwise specified.<br>\r\n[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>If you are one of the winners, you need to provide the source code as well as a non-exclusive license to use it in order to receive prize money.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>\r\n<p>The general terms and conditions only mention licencing, which does not imply that the source code has to be provided - its a very different thing. Is giving the source code specific to this competition? If so would the host be willing to agree to the licencing\r\n conditions imposed by the winner - such as it is for your eyes ony?</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8313",
      "postDate": "01/28/2012 17:38:47",
      "content": "<p>Just to be clear, we have to supply the code needed to implement the model, but not the code to create the model, right?</p>\r\n<p>For example, suppose our model creates a prediction by multiplying the past 10 trade prices by some set of 10 coefficients that are constant for every test point. We have to provide the code that contains the coefficients, and multiplies them by the past\r\n 10 trade prices to create a prediction, but we don't have to provide the code that generates the 10 coefficients from the training data, correct?\r\n</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8324",
      "postDate": "01/28/2012 22:54:43",
      "content": "<p>Good question. We understand that is a bit of a gray area and that some constants are achieved by &quot;guess and check&quot; or experience. However as much as possible we expect code to show us how constants were generated. We cannot allow an obfuscated solution\r\n which tells us nothing about how to generalize.</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8359",
      "postDate": "01/30/2012 22:52:16",
      "content": "<p>[quote=Sali Mali;8304]</p>\r\n<p>The general terms and conditions only mention licencing, which does not imply that the source code has to be provided - its a very different thing.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]The terms are specific on this, and include source code for training the model as well as making predictions. &nbsp;The model mentioned in the last section of the terms &amp; conditions I quoted is defined as ...</p>\r\n<p>[quote]</p>\r\n<p>any code, text, algorithm or series of algorithms, equation or series of equations, material, software, designs, documents, descriptions or specifications which is used, in whole or in part, directly or indirectly, in calculating, drafting, building, devising,\r\n calibrating, testing, evaluating, analyzing or generating an Entry, or which itself constitutes the whole or part of an Entry.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8362",
      "postDate": "01/31/2012 09:48:07",
      "content": "<p>Thanks Ben - this is still a bit grey though - I would disagree that the terms are specific on this.</p>\r\n<p>Granting a licence 'to use the winning Entry and any Model' is what would be reasonably expected, but just because the definition of 'model ' includes code (not source code!) - you don't need the 'source code' to 'use' the model.</p>\r\n<p>A compiled executable will enable use. I have a lot of software that I have been granted a licence to use it - but it doesn't entitle me to the source code.</p>\r\n<p>This might sound pedantic detail - but you need to be aware of this before it comes back to bite you.</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8393",
      "postDate": "02/01/2012 20:36:36",
      "content": "<p>Hi Phil,</p>\r\n<p>The terms also include</p>\r\n<p>[quote]The Winner agrees that payment of any Award is conditional upon receipt by the Competition Host of any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry and that the Award will not be paid until this condition has been satisfied.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>This explicitly states that you are required to provide the model (which includes source code), as well as a license to use it.</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8395",
      "postDate": "02/01/2012 21:04:23",
      "content": "<p>[quote=Ben Hamner;8393]</p>\r\n<p>Hi Phil,</p>\r\n<p>The terms also include</p>\r\n<p>[quote]The Winner agrees that payment of any Award is conditional upon receipt by the Competition Host of any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry and that the Award will not be paid until this condition has been satisfied.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>This explicitly states that you are required to provide the model (which includes source code), as well as a license to use it.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>Where does it explicitly state it - I can't find that bit in the T &amp; Cs ? I did a search for 'source code' in your T &amp; Cs and came up blank.</p>\r\n<p>Don't you mean implicitly?</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8396",
      "postDate": "02/01/2012 21:10:13",
      "content": "<p>Hi Phil, apologies, I meant implicitly. Since the model includes any code used for the competition, and you are required to provide the model in order to receive the prize, you need to provide the code as well.</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    },
    {
      "id": "8715",
      "postDate": "02/27/2012 10:41:13",
      "content": "<p>[quote=DanGlaser;8324]</p>\r\n<p>Good question. We understand that is a bit of a gray area and that some constants are achieved by &quot;guess and check&quot; or experience. However as much as possible we expect code to show us how constants were generated. We cannot allow an obfuscated solution\r\n which tells us nothing about how to generalize.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>I usually generate such constants using statistical softwares like JMP. What am I suppose to provide in such case?</p>\r\n<p>Thanks</p>",
      "rawMarkdown": "",
      "votes": null
    }
  ],
  "comments": [
    {
      "id": 8298,
      "author_name": "stafflowe",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/27/2012 23:13:21",
      "content": "<p>Hi Sali Mali,</p>\r\n<p>Yes, I guess we are &quot;buying&quot; your code, although the concept of running the competition is to acquire new ideas that we may not have had or have time to work on ourselves rather than the actual&nbsp;code itself (which we are very unlikely to use).&nbsp; This is kind\r\n of the point of Kaggle.&nbsp; I asked the team there and they told me that their T&amp;Cs state the following:</p>\r\n<p>&quot;By accepting an Award, the Winner agrees to grant a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty free license to the Competition Host to use the winning Entry and any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry in any way the\r\n Competition Host thinks fit. This license will be non-exclusive unless otherwise specified.&quot;</p>\r\n<p>Hope you're still keen to&nbsp;enter!</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8299,
      "author_name": "benhamner",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/27/2012 23:13:49",
      "content": "<p>This competition is in accordance with the standard terms and conditions. Specifically, in section 9.3,</p>\r\n<p>[quote] By accepting an Award, the Winner agrees to grant a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty free license to the Competition Host to use the winning Entry and any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry in any way\r\n the Competition Host thinks fit. This license will be non-exclusive unless otherwise specified.<br>\r\n[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>If you are one of the winners, you need to provide the source code as well as a non-exclusive license to use it in order to receive prize money.</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8304,
      "author_name": "salimali",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/28/2012 05:56:06",
      "content": "<p>[quote=Ben Hamner;8299]</p>\r\n<p>This competition is in accordance with the standard terms and conditions. Specifically, in section 9.3,</p>\r\n<p>[quote] By accepting an Award, the Winner agrees to grant a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable and royalty free license to the Competition Host to use the winning Entry and any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry in any way\r\n the Competition Host thinks fit. This license will be non-exclusive unless otherwise specified.<br>\r\n[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>If you are one of the winners, you need to provide the source code as well as a non-exclusive license to use it in order to receive prize money.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>\r\n<p>The general terms and conditions only mention licencing, which does not imply that the source code has to be provided - its a very different thing. Is giving the source code specific to this competition? If so would the host be willing to agree to the licencing\r\n conditions imposed by the winner - such as it is for your eyes ony?</p>\r\n<p>&nbsp;</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8313,
      "author_name": "roseyland",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/28/2012 17:38:47",
      "content": "<p>Just to be clear, we have to supply the code needed to implement the model, but not the code to create the model, right?</p>\r\n<p>For example, suppose our model creates a prediction by multiplying the past 10 trade prices by some set of 10 coefficients that are constant for every test point. We have to provide the code that contains the coefficients, and multiplies them by the past\r\n 10 trade prices to create a prediction, but we don't have to provide the code that generates the 10 coefficients from the training data, correct?\r\n</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8324,
      "author_name": "danglaser",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/28/2012 22:54:43",
      "content": "<p>Good question. We understand that is a bit of a gray area and that some constants are achieved by &quot;guess and check&quot; or experience. However as much as possible we expect code to show us how constants were generated. We cannot allow an obfuscated solution\r\n which tells us nothing about how to generalize.</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8359,
      "author_name": "benhamner",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/30/2012 22:52:16",
      "content": "<p>[quote=Sali Mali;8304]</p>\r\n<p>The general terms and conditions only mention licencing, which does not imply that the source code has to be provided - its a very different thing.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]The terms are specific on this, and include source code for training the model as well as making predictions. &nbsp;The model mentioned in the last section of the terms &amp; conditions I quoted is defined as ...</p>\r\n<p>[quote]</p>\r\n<p>any code, text, algorithm or series of algorithms, equation or series of equations, material, software, designs, documents, descriptions or specifications which is used, in whole or in part, directly or indirectly, in calculating, drafting, building, devising,\r\n calibrating, testing, evaluating, analyzing or generating an Entry, or which itself constitutes the whole or part of an Entry.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8362,
      "author_name": "salimali",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "01/31/2012 09:48:07",
      "content": "<p>Thanks Ben - this is still a bit grey though - I would disagree that the terms are specific on this.</p>\r\n<p>Granting a licence 'to use the winning Entry and any Model' is what would be reasonably expected, but just because the definition of 'model ' includes code (not source code!) - you don't need the 'source code' to 'use' the model.</p>\r\n<p>A compiled executable will enable use. I have a lot of software that I have been granted a licence to use it - but it doesn't entitle me to the source code.</p>\r\n<p>This might sound pedantic detail - but you need to be aware of this before it comes back to bite you.</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8393,
      "author_name": "benhamner",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "02/01/2012 20:36:36",
      "content": "<p>Hi Phil,</p>\r\n<p>The terms also include</p>\r\n<p>[quote]The Winner agrees that payment of any Award is conditional upon receipt by the Competition Host of any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry and that the Award will not be paid until this condition has been satisfied.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>This explicitly states that you are required to provide the model (which includes source code), as well as a license to use it.</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8395,
      "author_name": "salimali",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "02/01/2012 21:04:23",
      "content": "<p>[quote=Ben Hamner;8393]</p>\r\n<p>Hi Phil,</p>\r\n<p>The terms also include</p>\r\n<p>[quote]The Winner agrees that payment of any Award is conditional upon receipt by the Competition Host of any Model used or consulted by the Winner in generating the winning Entry and that the Award will not be paid until this condition has been satisfied.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>This explicitly states that you are required to provide the model (which includes source code), as well as a license to use it.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>Where does it explicitly state it - I can't find that bit in the T &amp; Cs ? I did a search for 'source code' in your T &amp; Cs and came up blank.</p>\r\n<p>Don't you mean implicitly?</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8396,
      "author_name": "benhamner",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "02/01/2012 21:10:13",
      "content": "<p>Hi Phil, apologies, I meant implicitly. Since the model includes any code used for the competition, and you are required to provide the model in order to receive the prize, you need to provide the code as well.</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    },
    {
      "id": 8715,
      "author_name": "ahassaine",
      "author_url": "",
      "post_date": "02/27/2012 10:41:13",
      "content": "<p>[quote=DanGlaser;8324]</p>\r\n<p>Good question. We understand that is a bit of a gray area and that some constants are achieved by &quot;guess and check&quot; or experience. However as much as possible we expect code to show us how constants were generated. We cannot allow an obfuscated solution\r\n which tells us nothing about how to generalize.</p>\r\n<p>[/quote]</p>\r\n<p>I usually generate such constants using statistical softwares like JMP. What am I suppose to provide in such case?</p>\r\n<p>Thanks</p>",
      "votes": null,
      "replies": []
    }
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